It's more like the One Above All kind of power. but the other writers ruined and screwed up these characters. With the tumor, Hajun has an Taiyoku level of Infinity . And yeah he stomps. Also, I should mention that they are probably re-retconning him to his previous levels soon. Some overkill ones would be The Brothers Death (apart from maybe small death), Scarlet King, etc. Post-retcon Beyonder loses hands-down. Beyonder (Earth-616)/Quotes Category page. Thanos wins them all unless its Thanos vs OAA. 0. Thor Vs Justice League : Vs AVENGERS : 12 Cosmic Beings in Marvel :. Forum Posts. well omnipotent. The value of your argument reached the negatives the moment you put fodder Beyonder above anyone here. Lucifer Morningstar in character could probally beat him. Learn the difference between the original, toned-down, and evolved versions of the Beyonder, a cosmic entity that can create and destroy reality, in Marvel Comics. Reply. 1 year ago. 14 years ago. PRE RETCON BEYONDER goes to the DRAGON BALL universe and fights all Dragonball characters at the same time - this includes Zeno Sama, The Angels, Whis, All Gods of Destruction, Broly, Goku, Vegeta, etc. Round 3: All-Mighty vs TOAA. Follow 22700. Elaine Belloc would win under both scenarios, 2nd would be pointless. Wiki Points. Pre-retcon beyonder 1 on 1. The only. Pre-Retcon Beyonders was described to be like a child compared to the Beyonders we are seeing now. The Pre-Retcon Beyonder is the embodiment of the Beyond-Realm and is the chief of the extra-dimensional race the Beyonders who created the cosmic cubes and Kosmos, but the Maker (one of the. Win by death, KO, incapIf we argue that Pre-Retcon Beyonder is not in his initial state in this match-up, then he might actually get defeated by the Scarlet King. When the Beyonder entered Marvel, reality itself ceased to exist. Pre-retcon has been stated to be millions of time stronger than all the power in the multiverse combined. Who is a better god like figure?Both Beyonders wins. The difference between that portrayal and what Pre-Crisis Superman was capable of is most likely over a dozen orders of magnitude greater than the one between an amoeba and Pre-Crisis Superman. He is a cosmic cube which is an Omni-dimensional object that can expand infinitely but that is only a limited part of him because he limits himself. And boy, DC is supremely addicted to crises. He'd be incredibly more versetile with his approach in the fight. post retcon toaa: his power can only work on a multiverse that is stable. Spite. who universe. 2. Post-retcon is still strong, there’s no doubt about that, but he’s still much much weaker than his Pre-retcon counterpart:. Text-only Version:. While thinking the Beyonder accidentally destroys the Omniverse. The power possessed by the Beyonders seems to dwarf all other beings in existence, with the exception of the One-Above-All, as the Beyonders were able to defeat and subsequently destroy every incarnation of every cosmic being that ruled over existence within a matter of months. We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us. 0. It's more like the One Above All kind of power. The Tree of Knowledge alone contains infinite multiverses and aleph infinities and The Scarlet King could effortlessly destroy it. Definitely Beyonder. #11. Learn the difference between the original, toned-down, and evolved versions of the Beyonder, a cosmic entity that can create and. This is way larger than the entire Marvel verse and DC verse. Michael Demiurgos >> Pre-Retcon Beyonder >>>>> Battler. Forum Posts. But beyonder that isn’t pr gets absorbed. Why? Because beyonder powers are const and limited. Reason? Preretcon beyonder can stand against TOAA and LT. HOM wanda. With this skill (plot manipulation), still can affect Pr beyonder. Pre-retcon The Beyonder was omnipotent in his Beyondverse, outside the Multiverse, and his powers were similar to those of the Living Tribunal who was a Multiverse level entity but the original beyonder was stated to have been the strongest character in the marvel universe in terms of nigh omnipotence and omniscience. PR Beyonder takes it 10/10. The people at Marvel Comics figured it was a dumb idea, so they changed (or retconned) it. Basically beyonder is being of infinite dimensions when He limits himself, but as beyond realm he is a creature that goes. 2. Dude’s absolutely broken. And the SCP verse is on par with the Dark Tower when it comes to sheer size and scale. This is way larger than the entire Marvel verse and DC verse. Jan 22, 2017. Doom, when has anything even close to that happened to the Tribunal? My point is Marvel states he is the one thing/person/entity that. The Beyonders have nothing to do with Pre Retcon Beyonder. For reference Pre-Retcon Beyonder is stronger than the Infinity Gauntlet by leaps and bounds but a Cosmic Cube is stated and shown to be vastly inferior to the Infinity Gauntlet. The same way how Marvel was back then a multiverse. deactivated-5ffd6af867550. As I said I'm not intimately familiar with pre retcon beyonder or even marvel comics overall. Beyonder is marvel. While pre retcon beyonder almost gets argued for a lose against toaa after a hard fought battle! So i think pre retcon beyonder = the presence. Prepare for. Nothing's ever more ridiculous than claiming a guy who got extremely tired just from erasing Death from the multiverse, jobs like fucking crazy during Secret Wars II and lost a serious fight to Rachel Summers (which everyone seems to. Originally posted by Endless Mike Not as powerful as Squirrel Girl Isn't SG like tied with TOAA in power or something? She stomps all of fiction at the same time, and does it repeatedly over and over again. [deleted] • 8 yr. ago. Some stuff from DC like Lucifer Morningstar. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. R. Goku is low outer at best and byonder is easily outerversal. May 26, 2023. Beyonder won't evenn make any difference more than the ant. Then the pre retcon beyonder attacks himself. Thanks!!!!!In fact, Pre-Retcon Beyonder had a completely different origin than being a child unit. Spectre is tapped into God so he has an unlimited amount of power at his disposal. Pre-Retcon Beyonder is honestly far less impressive than Molecule man, at least current molecule man. The Pre-Retcon Beyonder is literally millions of times more powerful than the Marvel creation which contains infinite multiverses upon infinite multiverses upon infinite multiverses and so on into infinity. Wiki Points. As you can see in the marvel hierarchy the one above all is at the very top. Do a list of spells, after pre retcon beyonder turns around. #20. 2. The only other non-Omnipotent characters in Marvel who might even rival a bloodlusted pre-Retcon Beyonder for one are the Infinite Infinites and Divine Creator VIA narrative wanking. At the time of the Secret Wars he was stated as being equal to the One Above All. Has no equal or superior, Created Heaven’s (which could be a Universe) with a word and is just flat out stated to be omnipotent with. Manhattan's league. the beyonder is literally the embodiment of a universe which dwarfs the mainstream multiverse, so he can do the same thing for the multiverse, but not all of marvel (since marvel is an omniverse. I will need to have cited evidence for. In Lucifer DC Multiverse is not just infinite dimensional but also existing in multiple existence as seen in his conversation with Presence. Archie sonic defeated someone who could destroy millions of MULTI-VERSE zones. Additional powers include teleportation, flight, the ability to choose his own physical resistances and attributes. 1. Who Is Strongest || Pre Retcon Beyonder vs Hajun#whoisstrongest#shorts#marvel#marvelcomics#marvelstudios#dc#dccomics#dceu#lucifer#beyonder#viralshorts#anime#. The Beyonder (Pre-Retcon)should be Tier 0. • 1 year ago. All reality was a dream created by Beyonder. The same way AAO is the Supreme Being of the Marvel Multiverse. (God) 2. #1 Edited By LightningGod67. But Lucifer. show 3 replies . But i think they have more "battle feats" (killed LT, killed millions/billions/or much more than that, of celestials (since they killed all of then from all multiverse). Within the beyond realm, he's supposed to be omnipresent. Even though most of Beyonder's feats in SW are still canon, Doom's statement could have *only* been in reference to POST-retcon (ie. ". TOAA probably isn't more powerful than suggsverse characters. Pre-Retcon beyonder could be said to be the "God before genesis" he was God before TOAA existed in the comics at that time, and when TOAA came into existence as an omnipotent character they had to greatly reduce the power of the Beyonder, from there they began to know him as "Post-retcon beyonder". However, he can scale to characters with immeasurable speed via statements. The thing is though, "Pre-Retcon Beyonder" is the Beyonder circa Secret Wars II, 1985. Let me remind you that SCP verse is much bigger than both Marvel and DC. At that time, The Beyonder was more powerful than the Living Tribunal and thus everything else in the Marvel Universe. Batman gets as much prep time as he wants. He was the TOAA of own multiverse, separate to that of the Marvel multiverse before he came across the. Pre retcon MM scared the cosmics of the 80s even as groups, they had to just let him pass by out of fear, even beg him to fight Beyonder due to how scared shitless they were of both. OPM can't even defeat Post-retcon Beyonder, let alone Pre-retcon. This fight takes place in a neutral space and either party wants to kill the other. That being said, I’m going to give this one to the pre-retcon Beyonder. deactivated-5b3daad020468. Pre-retcon Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than the entire multiverse. reality equals his thoughts. TOAA wins either way though. Now just imagine 10,000 of them vs 10,000 Celestials. Beyonder (Pre-Retcon Feats, Secret Wars and 1984 and pre-1984 Scaling only) Ivory Kings, First Firmament + Ultimate Ultimates. Round 2: All-Mighty vs Pre-Retcon Beyonder. ago. 2. Has no equal or superior, Created Heaven’s (which could be a Universe) with a word and is just flat out stated to be omnipotent with. They literally referenced him and said that he was just a child. Pretty sure it wasnt stated to end so. God Emperor Doom has no feats that matter at this level, Pre-retcon Beyonder turns him into a toilet. There is literally nothing that OPM could do to even affect him. She inherited the Demiurgic power through her father and with Lucifer's guidance, she molded and created her own universe, and that was a vastly weaker and earlier version. This has to be a joke wtf. Though with infinite power he is far more concerned about his place in life after being the all and everything within his realm he tries to understand the concepts of Life, Death, and Desire all things that he want experience. . Morals off. Protege and Pre-Retcon Beyonder 49%. Round 9: Lord English (Anyone who served him and who were amped by him count) Respect Thread for him and a bit for his Servants. The Beyonder was once a God with limitless powers in the Marvel Omniverse. First, that was a bad parody of Aquiles. Dr Manhattan is a very proficient matter-energy manipulator. Reviews: 0. PR Beyonder is probably the strongest comic character there is if you go by feats alone and not by hype. 5 years ago. CsmicRanker1314 1. Minor nitpick. No prep and no knowledge. Both are in character. Beyonder S T O M P S. Another statement made about. Pre-Retcon Beyonder just erases the Throne of Heroes, killing every single servant because servants are copies of heroes, made using information from the Throne of Heroes Or he could just wipe out the entire Fate universe and everything outside itPre-Retcon Beyonder kills Thanos no matter what the circumstances are. First is the. Pre-Retcon Beyonder has more statements of powers than the new ones. If PR Beyonder is superior to TOAA then God Emperor. We can actually prove that Pre-Retcon Beyonder is fodder to Composite-DC. Does it matter by that logic Beyonder (Pre-Retcon) because he didnt resist doom taking his power thats a contradiction in your opinion about PR Beyonder. Prior to being retconned totally out of power and relevance, the Beyonder was basically the most powerful being in all of Marvel comics, totally. About Press Copyright Contact us Creators Advertise Developers Terms Privacy Policy & Safety How YouTube works Test new features NFL Sunday Ticket Press Copyright. No prep and no knowledge. If i had to lowkey choose one blindly, i'd go with PRB. TOAA has complete control over every universe including 616. Dec 24, 2015. 9 K. The Pre-Retcon Beyonder is literally millions of times more powerful than the Marvel creation which contains infinite multiverses upon infinite multiverses upon infinite multiverses and so on into infinity. Pre Retcon is still cooler, jist because of cosmology Expansion, defenders beyonder seems stronger but he is featless for now. Beyonder if what I hear of Gan/Crimson King is true (and. The original Beyonder was considered to be the most powerful being in the multiverse, having power surpassing Cosmic Entities, such as the Living Tribunal and Eternity. Second, Beyonder would stop Mxy from going out of the comic, trapping him in the Beyond-Realm (himself). The Beyonder was originally an organizer of a massive battle between many of the mainstream. Followers. In 1985, before any changes were made to the story, The Beyonder was a. Reviews: 0. Post-Retcon Molecule Man. The living embodiment of The Beyond Realm, a reality outside of the Marvel multiverse, he utilizes his powers over reality, space, and time to observe the neverending battle between good and evil, serving as both an ally and enemy to Earth’s. Pre Retcon Beyonder is more a match for things like SCP 239. 1. It took 3 of the Beyonders to take down the same LT. . deactivated-5d45fd7ce1a16. . Jul 30, 2018. 3. Battles. Mephisto said that The Beyonder could make idlest imaginings a reality with a wave of his hand, turning all of existence inside out), Vibration Manipulation (Created. As a scientist, Doctor Manhattan is all about doing things step by step. He. In The Complete Secret Wars #3, Pre-Retcon Beyonder opined that Stephan Strange is stronger than any in the multiverse suspect and had the opportunity to seal him in a pocket dimension ridding the multiverse of him forever. 4 years ago. vs. That was an accident. He's just on a whole nother level from GEB. . From Lucifer #37. 548. Pre-Retcon Beyonders was. faster. He has way better feats, unless you can provide me a showing for Reinhard superior to being beyond comprehension of Pre-Retcon MM, as well as being above all of Marvel. Edit: Looking at the respect threads PR Beyonder actually seems a lot more impressive, and it seems my point regarding Lucifer being half the Presence was wrong. R1: Lucifer wins Mid-difficulty R2: Pre-recton beyonders wins high difficulty. Current version of the Beyonder (sentient cosmic cube, NOT the. 7. Pre retcon beyonder was more of a plot device than a character lol. He'd beat composite Superman, let alone this robot. Round 2: CAS VS PR Beyonder with Living Tribunal. You see, the thing is that Pre Retcon Beyonder is Secret Wars Beyonder, so it’s not completely incorrect in a away, but all these events are taking after the retcon, if you get what I mean. 0. 11,582. 13 years agoWasn't Pre-Retcon Beyonder just a child unit of Beyonder race? He was shown that way in Deadpool's Secret Wars. Note: While the Beyonder's existence is often divided between "pre-retcon" and "post-retcon" in relation to the original Secret Wars, this is not entirely accurate. Pre-Retcon Beyonder. Belligerents: Composite Time Lords from Doctor Who and the Pre-retcon Beyonder from Marvel Comics. While Bruce may have had god's full power (and I doubt that he did) he lacks the intelligence to use it, even Mxy does more. The Beyonder is millions of times more powerful than the combined power in the multiverse which includes the Living Tribunal - Scan 1. . The Beyonder has been retconned. Beyonder preretcon upgrade. Tons of awesome Beyonder wallpapers to download for free. I think Sun Wukong wins because he managed to achieve Nirvana which according to Buddhist teachers is transcendence of all concepts. But Lucifer should win this quite handily. I can only speak of Pre-Retcon Beyonder since that is who I am familiar with, but pre-Retcon Beyonder was explicitly a being outside of the Marvel totality. Post retcon would be a closer fight. Though with infinite power he is far more concerned about his place in life after being the all and everything within his realm he tries to understand the concepts of Life, Death, and Desire all things that he want experience. Maybe I have used faulty logic regarding this. The Beyonders who are attacking the multiverse are beings that live in the beyond, which most likely is either outside the multiverse, or be void between universes. Pre-Retcon Beyonder vs Oblivion. However PR Beyonder has more power than basically all of existence and attacks that destroyed multiverses were nothing to. Been done here on the vine. vs. LT has no jurisdiction over Phoenix which is why he. If PR Beyonder is superior to TOAA then God Emperor. ". Pre-retcon Beyonder is the be all-end all of ALL comicbook characters. • 1 year ago. Beyonder Spider-Man vs Naruto, MHA, Bleach, One Piece, Magi, Umineko, Sailor Moon and Saint Seiya verses. Lucifer is way above pre Retcon BeyonderPRE RETCON BEYONDER goes to the DRAGON BALL universe and fights all Dragonball characters at the same time - this includes Zeno Sama, The Angels, Whis, All Gods of Destruction, Broly, Goku, Vegeta, etc. A being who is millions of times stronger than the marvel Multiverse vs a being for whom the marvel. Imagion all he powers in the Marvel Multiverse (which is infinite), not just the Multiverse but also every being in it, and emptyness (which is also infinite) beyond it (blank pages) Even Stan Lee stated in an interview in the 80s, that Beyonder was supose to represent the power the writers had. Ruphas not in baseline L1A, Ruphas can easily defeated Alovenus which is rated L1A character. Conceptual Warping Tier C vs Particle Manipulating Tier B. Because PR Beyonder mentioned how he wants her to return what’s rightfully his, which one of things I’m assuming that could be is a portion of his power he lent or something like that. Beyonder - vs - Beyonder # 21 K. Reality merely became whatever the Beyonder's imagination was. R1: Pre-Retcon Beyonder Takes Low-Mid Difficulty. Jackalinthebox said: I thought pre-retcon Beyonder was closer in power to Lucifer & Michael, rather than the Presence. Wiki Points. Pre-Retcon Beyonder was also omnipotent "And another "slight" parameter. I never understood why people tried to mesh post-retcon feats with the pre-retcon continuity, what was written after the retcon was never canon to the Beyonder arc. PR Beyonder takes it 10/10. Anti-Monitor's probably on the scale of pre-retcon Molecule Man, a foe that Beyonder was able to beat. New comments cannot be posted. Beyonder made everything happen,every occurrence, positive or negative, was of Beyonder's own making Beyonder can rewriter everything,Even rewriter "Pre-recton Beyonder" into "SW3" HOTU never have. The Beyonder was once a God with limitless powers in the Marvel Omniverse. ago. The Pre-Retcon Beyonder is ery powerful, but not powerful enough to beat the one above all. Follow 1963. Interesting. He was even above and beyond the writing staff . Not to say he's necessarily just a planetary threat now. #4. Motivation: ROB Fight in ROBverse. Yeah. Most being have failed, and only two holds the hope of all creation. If that's the case, Team 2 stomps. PR-Beyonder was implied to be more powerful than the Living Tribunal, while Mxy was depowered by the Spectre, and Spectre has beaten other 5D imps before. Sign in to edit View history Talk (0) List of all notable quotes by or about Beyonder (Earth-616). Poll Shinra Banshoman vs Pre Retcon Beyonder and Lucifer Morningstar (115 votes) Beyonder and Lucifer erase Shinra on accident 16%. Pre Retcon Beyonder shitstomps the edgelord version of Batman into the ground, along with the rest of the DCverse. The living embodiment of The Beyond Realm, a reality outside of the Marvel multiverse, he utilizes his powers over reality, space, and time to observe the never-ending battle between good and evil, serving as both an ally and enemy to Earth's. Pre retcon beyonder was more of a plot device than a character lol. Don't think God Thing's H4X compares. PR Beyonder is way beyond than Thanos with IG. Thanks!!!!!fact, Pre-Retcon Beyonder had a completely different origin than being a child unit. About Pre-retcon/Classic Beyonder. Beyonder at first during SW2 didnt even have a concept of life or death for a while and was even manipulated by normal people, by the end of SW2 he was more knowledgeable but to the basic comrepehension of stuff, Lucy on the other hand is one of the most cunning people in DC and with his power combined he should think of a way to beat PRB other. #28 ovy7. 13 years. When The Pre-Retcon Molecule Man(with the Infinite portion of The Beyonder's Powers)fought The Beyonder, they were stated to be "2 of the mightiest being in ALL. Beyonder is just Metaverse level or Low Metaverse. canon) Beyonder, because again: "pre-retcon. You can also upload and share your favorite Beyonder wallpapers. MM is not as strong as Beyonder but he's above Living Tribunal, abstracts, IG and other such levels of cosmic power. Pre-Retcon Beyonder would easily beat Lucifer Morningstar, and would probably stalemate TOAA and MoM. CCC Gilgamesh vs Pre-Retcon Beyonder. Spectre. The Beyonder “realizes” something. It's similar to how using the Super Exciting guides for SSJ Multipliers should not take away from Goku's feats in 1990 when his SSJ form alone in the Namek Saga was far above a Galaxy busting Freiza. Clearly neither is the GEB - but in the sense prior to the retcons he was a character whose will defined reality around him and he was infinitely more powerful than anyone else on. 4 years ago. Cosmic armor supes needs a downgrade soon. Also the Doomslayer has way more fighting and combat feats. One Universe of a difference. Beyonder uses his prep to observe Doom preparing,. TOAA is God of Marvel while PR Beyonder is a much bigger god. Pre-retcon beyonder 1 on 1 Round 2: CAS VS PR Beyonder with Living Tribunal Round 3: CAS and Myx vs PR Beyonder and Living Tribunal 4 years ago #2. He was the TOAA of his own multiverse, separate to that of the Marvel multiverse, before he came across the. In Immortal Hulk#50 TOAA said he becomes TOBA when he has to do. Azrael and Time(Discworld) 4. It is capable of becoming a Multiversal threat, but it's vastly weaker than any of the Apollyon-Class SCPs. Fight takes place in current DC universe. But it doesn't end there. WF Mxy vs Pre Retcon Beyonder is basically picking which company you like more : DC or Marvel. Pretty sure it wasnt stated to end so. But Pre-retcon Beyonder is just a cut above the rest in terms of these characters. Wiki Points. Destroyah said: Doesn't really change the fact that PR Beyonder was as close you could get to being omnipotent then just being. let's wait and see his actual feats. Lucifer is a different beast. Both strike an ambiguous pose when it comes to creating a universe. VS. Then there is Inhuman/Mutant beyonder who had nothing to do with The beyonders. After that he was retconned to a far less powerful cosmic cube. This topic is locked from further discussion. According to that one guy Anos could do it,. 5 years ago. This is a spite thread then . That makes me believe that Beyonder may not be all that he is made out to be. 5 years ago. Mismatch, this version of Beyonder is TOAA level. Round 3: CAS and Myx vs PR Beyonder and Living Tribunal. Well pre-retcon beyonder was able to erase marvels death. #2. The Crimson King decides he's bored and decides to start trolling other verses. Pre-Retcon Beyonder was the literal principle and the executioner at the same time yes their was scans of Beyonder TANKing universe busting and faster than light attacks he even was able to. Forum Posts. PR Beyonder tanked a blast that would of shattered billions of dimensions and he was bullying PR MM who repaired the multiverse with a gesture. Then there the Beyonder Child unit thing that is related to The beyonders. . Hit a Like And Subscribe To Help Out💵 “Wanna Donate/Support? 💵👇🏼👇🏼👇🏼👇🏼👇🏼👇🏼👇🏼👇🏼👇🏼👇💰PayPal💰. However, PR Beyonder is an extremely powerful reality warper and is simply way out of Dr. You need to be logged in to post comments. Round 1: CAS vs. PRE-RETCON BEYONDER? All of them are BLOODLUSTED! TOAA is the special referee! DB universe characters start at their maximum power and are already at their most powerful form! 14 years ago. #2. than i understand from other blogs Pre-retcon Beyonder is High 1-A/ High Outerversal in beyond-realm. Join this channel to get access to perks:…The Beyonder was an impossibly powerful being who held the Secret Wars, essentially kidnapping a whole bunch of heroes and villains and making them fight for his. Forum Posts. Beyonder was an incredibly powerful alien entity from Marvel comics who would becoming a recurring antagonist for several story-arcs, he was considered to be the single most dangerous threat the collective Marvel multiverse had ever faced and was compared numerous times to a Supreme Being whose power so greatly eclipsed those found in. The only other non-Omnipotent characters in Marvel who might even rival a bloodlusted pre-Retcon Beyonder for one are the Infinite Infinites and Divine Creator VIA narrative wanking. Both Beyonder (assuming this is him outside his personal realm) and the Presence, since both are like Low 1-B, this could go either way. Beyonder was everything outisde the Multi-verse. The Beyonder and the Molecule Man, also known as Owen Reece, have a complex and tumultuous relationship. While The Living Tribunal is rated 1-A (more than The Beyonder)and 616 Eternity or Multi-Eternity is rated High 1-B (same as The Beyonder). ago. Still, Pre-retcon Beyonder stomps here. @rabumalal: Dream would probably solo LT hes near pre-retcon beyonder level at best read into his feats. Pre retcon beyonder was absolutely omnipotent, the equal of the one above all. Pre-Retcon Beyonder (as in, during Secret Wars II) was more powerful than the in-universe hand of the author. Pre Retcon Beyonder is more insane than his diet coke race counterparts Hickman used(yes they predate Hickman as Kubik in that FF4 comic shows, I know). The omnipotent Beyonder is on a destructive rampage and has decided to destroy the entire Marvel omniverse. PR Beyonder had full backing by Marvel Boss, Jim Shooter to do anything he wanted. 7 K. Wiki Points. R1: Everyone of the verses is at their peak. Supposedly it is equal but opposite to the Presence.